Thanks to Epanou, Rodolphe, Evelyne, and ...... Stella Vander!
You can download the score from here.
Truly a group effort. Rodolphe uploaded, Evelyne asked Stella if it was OK, and Stella said yes.
Posts
Caballo de Feria - Diluvio
14 years ago
special and greatest thanks to Stella and Evelyne !
ReplyDeleteWomen rules !
I've been waiting for this moment for a long time! Now I know where all my spare time is going for a while. Thanks guys! Much love
ReplyDeleteSo, this was a Seventh Records product. I bought this some years back. Is this out of print? Are you sure this is allowed?
ReplyDeleteI also purchased this score many years ago. I had also questioned the Zeuhl and Beyond blog when they posted it. But, Evelyne (who is a friend of the band) asked Stella if the score was truly out of print, and Stella replied in the affirmative. Stella also gave permission for people to download it.
ReplyDeleteDUDE....I can´t believe it! There is the fucking Goebbels quote right there on the last page as well!!!!! I had no idea this was out there even before the Trianon DVD....any questions??
ReplyDeletehey marc, by the way that incineratus thing you talk about, is that on MDK? Couldn´t find it in the score...
It's at the end of Hortz für dëhn stëkëhn west; something like
ReplyDelete'inzitëhmëhnt inzineratohr gëüss'
Well, in the score it says: slag slag slag zain inzineratohr gëüss.
ReplyDeleteEven IF inzineratohr means incinerator, how will you proove what or who is going to be burned to ashes?
MDK is a story, a fairytale, written in a higly unprecise language. Its about an imaginary planet kobaia, and untill CV says its kobaian jews he is burning (kobaian jews??), I think you are risking running with hot air.
You are putting pieces together and you dont know the meaning of each piece, maybe you think you do, but you are in fact guessing and speculating - this is definetely not science. And to some, like DANA, it is a very serious matter. So please dont blow things out of proportions.
In the other thread you can read that Giorgyo Gomelsky noted that CV had swastika flags in his room when he was young, but Gomelsky didn't care - obviously because it wasn't important! Young people wants to provoke, CV wasn't a peaceful hippie & provoked artistically in any way he could with great ambitions.
Lets see what we have:
Possible anti-semitic ideas:
He had swastika flags in his room, meaning?
There are words in his lyrics one might interprete as taken from german, and have connotations to the 3. reich (allthough we dont have a dictionary), but translating them to a specific meaning is going way too far.
He is quoting J.G., which could be Joseph Göbbels - or someone else (I couldnt find the quote on the internet). We dont know why.
He is reported in a drunken state to have said demeaning things about jews.
And at another occasion after a concert he did it again, but this is denied by another person present.
Anything else? All interpreted stuff.
Possibly no racistic ideas:
He has had at least 4 jews in the band - including his wife! The person closest to him!
He is of gypsy origin (many lost their lives in 2. worldwar too due to nazism)
He had several musicians of other semitic origin (arabic?) in the band.
He loves John Coltrane and points to him as his most important inspirational source (JC is black).
Facts, or from his own mouth.
If we consider the first group of arguments 'that he is a anti-semit' as qualified (personally I dont), and the second group as rather undeniable, then I would say: This is not a matter that can be solved as black & white: Like either he is anti-semitic or not.
If one could put a psycological perspective in to this: He must have traumas from his past & origin, and is acting some of it out as art with strange words & lyrics. Getting near to the dangerous, evil and traumatic, like a kid who persistantly wants to listen to a scary fairytale, perhaps like Lars von Trier and his movie Anti-christ.
Notice how he keeps coming back to the same themes and songs, and even records them again after 30-40 years.
Maybe he isn't a grown up person in many ways. Why does'nt he have kids (well there could be a load of reasons)?
And we all gets emotionally involved, because the music is SO good & strong, and we dont want to realise, that we eventually and unknowingly have worshipped nazism.
And am pretty sure we haven't, and we are getting swindled by those who keeps insisting that we have.
I believe CV's brain is filled with contradictions and pain, and he is letting it all out in his art.
After this little presumtious amateur psycologic motiveanalysis, I can only repeat: Ask CV directly or leave it, and have fun & etc. with his fantastic music.
RE: Michael
ReplyDeleteI thought Vander had a daughter named Julie? Or is she of some other relation to him?
Anyways, another good post from you, you've been quite insightful during this whole fiasco.
michael, sorry but i don´t agree with you. you´re constantly trying to make things look like they are just interpretations and not facts. I wonder why you do that. I think you just do not want to believe any of the recent stuff. That is your right of course. But i want to make a few things clear.
ReplyDelete1. The Goebbels quote is fact. Maybe you were not part of the discussion when it took place in 2003, but i have proven it to be from Goebbels many times. it is sourced from the Horst Wessel Lied, and represents a symbolism that was very often used by Goebbels in his speeches. Also, if it wasn´t a Goebbels quote, then why should Seventh have it removed on the 2nd pressing of the Trianon DVD?
Christian was asked about this, and told some story of having it read on the backside of some "CAHIER" of a friend "last year", thought it was cool, and did not know where it was from. The "last year" bit is especially funny, as now i have seen the quote on the MDK partition, which was issued way before "last year"....
2. The Bobino cover has the Deutsches Stadion customized for Magma. There is no doubt about it.
And please tell me, what is the artistic provocation of having swastika flags in your bedroom??? They should be on the stage to provoke anyone. That really doesn´t make sense to me, Michael.
But in the end, what would you do, if you were accused of such things? would you not come forward and comment on it? Many, many people have requested a statement about these things over the last 20 years, and CV has never commented on it, apart from a few very slurry answers to interviewers who only scratched this issue.
I just wonder, what would make you believe anything of all this, what would Chrsitian have to say to make all the people who doubt reconsider their position?
What would you say if you knew for sure that CV has said "Hitler and Coltrane...it´s the same spirit"...well, maybe that he was drunk when he said that. I know that he said it, i have no doubt that this is true.
Actually, that is the main scandal of it all. Not that CV is a weirdo with Nazi fascination, there are many people like that running around here on planet earth. But that he incorporates John Coltrane into all this bullshit, who cannot defend himself anymore, that he says he is the one who continues what John Coltrane was aiming for, and then mixes it with Nazi ideology, that for me is the biggest faux-pas.
Michael, I am not against you personally. I just don´t think that this discussion will lead us much further. Everyone has to find a way to cope with this. I have mine, you have yours...
olvator's "Christian was asked about this" is misleading. He claims that Christian said he found it on someone's book "last year". However the original quote does not refer to a time frame. Unfortunately this crappy web interface doesn't allow copy and paste, or I could show the full question and answer. But it is a Telerama chat from 30.10.2006.
ReplyDeleteTo all readers:
ReplyDeleteAs a French speaker I would like to remind you all that Babblefish and Google are amazing tool, but not reliable.
Everyone should make up his mind on the basis of facts only. Please keep in mind that it's not fair to discuss things that no one ever said or wrote except a misleading software (for example read previous comment from Anonymus).
To Olvator:
I agree with you that we have facts. So what's the point of bringing more allegations about what CV supposedly said or when he
said it. Don't get me wrong everything can be discussed here, but please distinguish facts from allegations and second-hand reports.
Here's part of the original chat:
http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Discussions/Musique/magma-emehntehtt-sortit-sujet_36958_31.htm
Tchat Télérama.fr
(...)
rené : Dans le journal kobaien "Muzik Zeuhl" numéro 17, vous avez choisi de mettre des textes de Jean Doutreligne qui est en fait le pseudo de Léon Degrelle, fondateur du parti politique fasciste belge Rex, allié fidèle d'Hitler et du nazisme. On peut aussi remarquer que l'inscrïption "Rex" apparait sur nombre de vos CD. Dans le DVD anniversaire de Magma au Trianon, il y a aussi une citation de J.G qui n'est autre que Joseph Goebbels. Devant ces faits, j'aimerais donc que vous vous exprimiez enfin sur votre rapport avec le nazisme. Merci. Christian_Vander : Doutreligne, je ne le connais pas. Je n'ai qu'une seule chronique dans ce journal, qui s'appelle l'Alerte ouverte. Des tas de gars collaborent, ils sont libres d'écrire des articles. Pour ce qui est de cette histoire de JG, c'est une phrase que j'avais notée au travers d'un ami à moi qu'il avait notée sur un cahier. La phrase était : "l'armée de ceux qui sont tombés n'a pas rendu les armes, elle marche dans les rangs des soldats", elle était signée JG. J'ai trouvé qu'elle était adaptée à la circonstance ; c'était une phrase guerrière. Nous étions les combattants de la Zeuhl. Pour Rex, c'est quand on a commencé à faire des rééditions, on cherchait une référence : "Re" correspondait à réédition, et "X" parce qu'on ne savait pas le nombre et par quoi on allait commencer. On était en train de récupérer des bandes et des disques de partout.
(...)
Telerama.fr - 31 Octobre 2006
Thanks to all people involved for their efforts!
ReplyDeleteCould it be that some pages are missing from the scans? In particular, the beginning of Da Zeuhl Wortz Mekanik seems to be cut off (page 8), with the "Do weri wisehndo worai" part missing.
Hi, Eumel...
ReplyDeleteI've read what's you're telling...maybe
some pages are missing,& , as I'm not at Home (I've only with me the scans), let me the Time to come back Home, & I'll check this asap...
Thank you very much, Rodolphe!
ReplyDeleteBonjour Eumel,
ReplyDeleteYou was perfectly right for some part missing for the Score MDK: 2 pages were cut off ! I've named them doc7' & doc7''...Here's the link for the complete one, Thanks to notify it.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BHVWC97Y
Olvator, much as I like you, I think you are having a hard time distinguishing 'fact' from second-hand knowledge, supposition and hearsay--as well as subjective interpretation taken as objective. Were you ever there to hear Christian make any of these statements about his beliefs? How do you know then? For me, I like to have my 'facts' be substantial, verified by direct observation or the observations of more than one independent source (a disguntled, ex-member's scandalous 'revelations' don't convince me of much, when they themselves are so subjective.)
ReplyDeleteI think there's no doubt that Christian Vander has been fascinated by Nazism, as one of the most extreme extremes of the 20th century. I'll admit that freely. And I agree--it's all over the place when you look. Just seek out the swastika on the front cover of the first album.
But this is not some hidden code (it's right there, on the cover of the album!) In my reading of the artwork (which isn't Christian's anyway, is it?), the swastika represents one of the many perversions of modern civilization being crushed under the pair of clenching claws. It's being crushed, not doing the crushing. Why would this be, Olvator?
People love gossip and rumors, and the thrill of them can sometimes make them seem so real. But you have said nothing that convinces me that Christian is a hidden Nazi who worships Hitler. That his music and symbolism includes the mysticism, extremism, agony-and-ecstasy, and totalizing mythology that the Nazis loved is perhaps no accident, and he may indeed even be fascinated by and attracted to aspects of Hitler and Nazism, while not revering the man or the movement.
Now, this will rub against the grain, but to my mind, that makes Vander an original thinker, not afraid to evaluate a figure like Hitler objectively on his own terms, regardless of all the 'pure, unadulterated evil' hype. I can hear the objections already, so let me clarify that I'm not saying that Hitler WASN'T evil, by any definition of that term, simply that I don't believe he was the anti-christ he's often made out to be. That's exactly the disturbing complexity of human beings that people try to avoid by characterizing the man as pure evil: that Hitler could sniff a flower, believe in wholesomeness and goodness, and torture and slaughter tens of millions of innocent people.
Mysticism, for example, because of its association with the Nazis, has been tinged with disgrace, as have Nietzsche and Wagner. To my thinking, that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Isn't it in fact remarkably brave (if powerfully disturbing) to ask: were there sides of Hitler and the Nazis that were admirable, as disgusting as what they ultimately did was?
It's obvious from any number of facts that Christian is not anti-black or anti-semitic in his relations with his musicians or idols. If he's not a racist, but fascinated by Nazi symbolism and the extremity of the movement, does that make him a Nazi?
And just what do you think Vander is trying to preach to us? Hatred of the Jews? Where is that in the music or lyrics? Racial purity? Where is that? The readings you and Manu give to the lyrics are as far from transparent as the 'Paul is Dead' on my Beatles records (played backwards).
I don't absolutely know what's in Vander's heart and mind, except as expressed in the content of his music, and that informs me that your assumptions about what's in his heart and mind doesn't match. There's simply too much positive life force to be something as negatively driven as you describe.
@anonymous
ReplyDeletean original thinker would be able to comment on all the stuff that was brought up here during the last months, rather than to not comment it AT ALL. No, I have not heard CV say all those things in person, but I am not basing my claims at only Manu´s comments ( although I believe Manu every word he told). I have been told things by many different people who were close with CV and to me there is no more doubt (and I have had the same doubts that you have now for over a decade, I never wanted to believe any of it). I really don´t want to get into all it again, just believe what you all want to believe, and I think about it the way that I do. The Goebbels quote is fact. The Deutsche Stadion sleeve is fact. The name REX for the Cd´s is fact. If someone is confronted with such things and does not comment on it at all....what should we make out of that? If you would sit down with ex band members or other people close to CV and ask them about racist and antisemitic rants CV would start once he is drunk, you would get hundreds of stories. I don´t need to convince anyone of what I think, but for me all doubts are out of the way and it is all very clear to me.
I understand that many people are just not ready to realize it, because it would completely ruin their love for Magma, same things happened to me. Let us talk again in a few years, maybe by then it will have sunk in. CV is crazy. That´s basically it. And he is a coward to not openly say what he thinks. And if he doesn´t think like this, he would have to comment on it and call me or anyone else a liar. I am still waiting for that. Have you seen the latest youtube interview with Christian somewhere backstage, where he is wearing that black Japanese Kimono style robe with a cap displaying the Japanese rising sun war flag? The same flag they had when they were allies of the Germans in WW2? If someone only wants to provoke with all this, as many say, I say why doesn´t he start to be open for discussion about what he thinks?
Amazing!!! Does anyone know where we can get sheet music for Kohntarkosz, Emehnteht Rhe, K.A., Wurdah Itah, and theusz Hammtahk??I can't find them anywhere!!
ReplyDeleteAny chance of a reupload? I would really like to have this.
ReplyDeleteSalutations,,J'aimerais bien trouver la partion pour MDK,,aussi MDK pour piano,,,,et ci possible un lexique des paroles et leur traduction..merci bcp...
ReplyDeleteAny chance of a reupload? Megaupload is now dead
ReplyDeleteCould we get a reupload? Megaupload has been dead for a while now
ReplyDeleteI just want the sheet music for mdk. Does anyone have a link?
ReplyDeleteI would also like to get the sheet music! MegaUpload is dead. Can anyone share a Google Drive link or something similar?
ReplyDeleteThanks!